skip to main content
European Commission Logo
Newsroom

Dialogue with churches, religious associations or communities and philosophical and non-confessional organisations

The dialogue with churches, religious associations or communities and philosophical and non-confessional organisations allows for an open exchange of views between EU institutions and important parts of European society on EU policies. It was established in the beginning of the 1990s by EU Commission President Jacques Delors and offers an opportunity to engage in the European policy making process. Currently the dialogue is under responsibility of Vice President Schinas.

Vincent Depaigne is the Coordinator for the dialogue between the European Commission and churches, religious associations or communities as well as philosophical and non-confessional organisations.

Contribute to the exchange on Twitter: #Art17Dialogue

Contact: JUST-DIALOGUE@ec.europa.eu

Related topics

Fundamental rights

date:  08/02/2024

In the news

11 March 2024: Article 17 dialogue meeting on the 2023 Enlargement package 

In the context of the Article 17 dialogue, the European Commission (DG NEAR) presented the 2023 Enlargement package adopted by the Commission in November 2023 and the next steps towards EU enlargement. Following the presentation, an exchange of views took place with the Article 17 dialogue partners (see report of the meeting and list of participating organisations below). For more information on the Enlargement package click here.

 
   

14 February 2024: Article 17 dialogue meeting on the Defence of Democracy package

In the context of the Article 17 dialogue, the European Commission (DG JUST) presented the main elements of the Defence of Democracy package adopted by the Commission on 12 December 2023 and the next steps towards the implementation of the package. Following the presentation, an exchange of views took place with the Article 17 dialogue partners (see list of participating organisations below). For more information on the Defence of Democracy package click here

 
   

8 February 2024: Vice-President Schinas hosts high-level meeting with philosophical and non-confessional leaders to discuss the EU’s response to external and internal challenges 

On 8 February 2024, Vice-President Margarítis Schinas hosted a high-level meeting with philosophical and non-confessional leaders to reflect on how the European Union has responded to the various challenges it has faced since 2020, such as the Covid crisis, the war in Ukraine and, more recently, the conflict in Gaza. Othmar Karas, First Vice-President of the European Parliament, and Frans Van Daele, Special Envoy for the promotion of Freedom of religion or belief outside the EU, also contributed to the meeting.


Vice-President Schinas said:

“External and internal crises put our democracies under pressure. Following my meeting with religious leaders, I am glad to meet today with philosophical and non-confessional leaders to build on past dialogues and discuss the European response to these challenges and how we can strengthen the shared foundations of our Union.”

The meeting was an occasion to reflect on the issues addressed during the high-level meetings which took place since 2020 within the framework of the Article 17 dialogue, allowing to take stock of the achievements of the current Commission and look at future challenges, in particular in view of the upcoming European elections. 

 
   

18 January 2024: Vice-President Schinas hosts high-level meeting with European religious leaders to discuss the EU's response to external and internal challenges

On 18 January 2024, European Commission Vice-President for Promoting our European Way of Life, Margaritis Schinas, hosted a high-level meeting with 10 religious leaders to reflect on how the European Union has responded to the various challenges it has faced since 2020, such as the COVID-19 pandemic, the war in Ukraine and, more recently, the conflict in Gaza.

Vice-President Schinas said:

“In the past years, external and internal crises have confronted the European Union with challenges of momentous proportions, which continue to leave their divisive mark to this day. I look forward to listening to the religious leaders and to getting their views on the role they can play to heal fault lines and, in the process, strengthen the shared foundations of our Union.”

The meeting was an occasion to reflect on the issues addressed during the high-level meetings with religious leaders which took place since 2020 within the framework of the Article 17 dialogue, allowing to take stock of the achievements of the current Commission and look at future challenges, in particular in view of the upcoming European elections.

 
   

19 December 2023: Vice-President Schinas hosts high-level meeting with European religious leaders

On 19 December 2023, European Commission Vice-President for Promoting our European Way of Life, Margaritis Schinas, hosted a special high-level meeting with religious leaders from across Europe to discuss the conflict in the Middle East and its impact on European citizens. This meeting follows the Commission’s communication on "No place for hate: a Europe united against hatred”, which called on all Europeans to stand up against hatred and speak up for tolerance and respect.  

Vice-President Schinas said: "We must face division with reconciliation and dialogue. The dramatic events that unfolded since 7 October and their polarising effect in Europe show more than ever the need for us to come together around our most fundamental values, which cement our European way of life, our respect for fundamental rights and humanitarian principles. Religious leaders have an important role to play to help heal discord, as well as quell hatred and their consequences. Today’s special meeting will be an occasion to address these issues and discuss the way forward.”

Vice-President Schinas met with members of the Bishop’s Conferences of the European Union, the Conference of European Rabbis, the Church of Sweden, the Office of the Ecumenical Patriarchate to the EU and the Italian Islamic Religious Community. The meeting built on the last high-level dialogues to address the current developments in the Middle East from the point of view of religious institutions and their communities. Religious leaders also debated ways to promote engagement with and among religious leaders in Europe and the Middle East on these critical issues. 

 
   

27 January 2023: Annual high-level meeting with religious leaders

Vice-President Schinas hosted the annual high-level meeting with religious leaders. The first Vice-President of the European Parliament, Othmar Karas and Frans van Daele, Special Envoy for the promotion of Freedom of religion or belief outside the EU, joined the discussion. The theme of this year's meeting was "The impact of the war in Ukraine on the European way of life”, with eight religious leaders from across Europe, representing the main European religions (see list of participants below). Participants looked into the role played by religious organisations in relation with the war in Ukraine, the consequences on the EU migration and asylum policy of the influx of Ukrainian refugees, the energy crisis and its social impact as well as the impact of those issues on the European architecture, in particular in view of the future enlargements of the European Union.

Agenda

List of participants

Press release

Summary report 

Click here, here and here for photos and videos.

 
   

7 December 2022: The European Commission appoints Special Envoy for the promotion of freedom of religion or belief outside the EU.

The European Commission has decided to appoint Frans van Daele, a Belgian national, as Special Envoy for the promotion of freedom of religion or belief outside the EU. The Special Envoy is attached to Vice-President Schinas, who is in charge of leading the Commission's dialogue with churches and religious associations or communities, and with philosophical and non-confessional organisations. 

This appointment shows the Commission's commitment to address this challenge and to ensure that the rights of all faiths and beliefs are respected. The Special Envoy is tasked with the establishment of a dialogue with national authorities and other stakeholders in countries suffering from discrimination on the grounds of religion or belief. He will support intercultural and interreligious dialogue processes, including encouraging dialogue between representatives of different faiths and the setting up of joint initiatives. He will put in place measures to target de-radicalisation and prevention of extremism on grounds of religion or belief in third countries. In cooperation with authorities from third countries, he will promote religious diversity and tolerance within educational programmes and curricula. The Special Envoy will coordinate his activities closely with the EU Special Representative on Human Rights.

Frans van Daele brings to his new position his many years of outstanding experience in the diplomatic field together with his commitment to the protection of human rights and religious beliefs. During his career, he held several key diplomatic positions. He was notably Chief of Staff to His Majesty the King of the Belgians, Chief of Staff for the President of the European Council Herman van Rompuy and Belgium's Permanent Representative to NATO. Previously, he also served as Belgium's Ambassador to the US as well as Ambassador and Permanent Representative to the European Union in Brussels. 

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/mex_22_7554

 
   

2 December 2022: Annual high-level meeting with non-confessional organisations

Vice-President Schinas hosted the annual high-level meeting with non-confessional organisations, with First-Vice President of the European Parliament, Othmar Karas. The theme of this year's meeting was "The impact of the war in Ukraine on the European way of life”, with nine representatives from philosophical and non-confessional organisations from across Europe. Participants looked into the consequences on the EU migration and asylum policy of the influx of Ukrainian refugees, the energy crisis and its social impact as well as the impact of those issues on the European architecture, in particular in view of the future enlargements of the European Union.

Agenda

List of participants

Photos and video

Summary report

 
   

31 May 2022: Article 17 dialogue meeting on the Conference on the Future of Europe

In the context of the Article 17 dialogue, the Common Secretariat of the Conference on the Future of Europe presented the conclusions of the Conference and the next steps. Following the presentation, an exchange of views took place with the Article 17 dialogue partners (see report of the meeting and list of participating organisations below). 

Report of the meeting

List of participants

 
   

14 January 2022: Article 17 Dialogue High-Level Meeting on the Conference on the Future of Europe

Vice-President Margaritis Schinas hosted the Article 17 Dialogue High-Level Meeting on the Conference of the Future of Europe gathering leaders drawn from religious and non-confessional organisations (see list of participants below). Vice-President Dubravka Šuica, co-chair of the Executive Board of the Conference on the Future of Europe, updated participants on recent developments and next steps in the Conference. This was the first high-level meeting gathering both representatives from religious and non-confessional organisations. As Vice-President Schinas explained, this format was justified by the special nature of the meeting which should be seen as part of the ongoing discussions on the future of Europe, in the presence today of Vice-President Šuica.

All participants expressed their appreciation for the invitation and underlined their commitment to contribute to the discussion on the future of Europe. The main issues raised concerned climate change, migration and asylum, freedom of thought, conscience and religion, as well as European democracy, including the future of role of citizens’ panels and the need to uphold the rule of law (see summary report below).

Summary report

List of participants

 
   

10 December 2021: Extraordinatory high-level meeting with religious leaders

At the request of President von der Leyen, Vice-President Schinas held an extraordinary high-level meeting with leaders of major European religions and organisations. Representatives from seven major European communities participated in the meeting: Catholics, Protestant, Orthodox, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu and Buddhist. The aim of the meeting was to reaffirm the Commission's commitment to the dialogue with churches and religious organisations and their important role in the European project. Vice-President Schinas underlined in particular that respect for all religions and beliefs is a core value of the European Union. Participants agreed that common values and identity should be based on the recognition of different identities and diversity, including religious ones. Religious traditions can and must be seen as part of our cultural life. Religious festivals were considered by all participants as moments of sharing and opening to others and must be seen as a moment where different people of faith - as well as people without affiliation - can be brought together.  

List of participants

 
   

10 June 2021: Article 17 dialogue meeting on the European Green Deal

In the context of the Article 17 dialogue, the European Commission (Cabinet of Executive Vice-President Timmermans) presented presented the recent developments in the European Green Deal, in particular with the issue of the just transition dimension. Following the presentation, an exchange of views took place with the Article 17 dialogue partners (see report of the meeting and list of participating organisations below). 

Report of the meeting

List of participating organisations

 
   

5 May 2021: Article 17 dialogue meeting on the European Commission Action Plan on Integration and Inclusion (2021-2027)

In the context of the Article 17 dialogue, the European Commission (DG HOME) presented its Action Plan on Integration and Inclusion (2021-2027) and the potential role religious and non-confessional organisations may play in this context. The meeting allowed an exchange of views between the Article 17 partners who were present and Commission services (the report and list of participating organisations can be found below).

Report of the meeting

List of participating organisations

 
   

5 February 2021: Annual high-level meeting with non-confessional organisations

Vice-President Schinas hosted the annual high-level meeting with non-confessional organisations. The theme of this year's meeting was "The European way of life". The meeting looked at how the Covid crisis may have affected and challenged this way of life and the responses to these challenges. The meeting also addressed the European response to the current crisis, as well as recent developments such as the Migration and Asylum Pact, inclusion and integration as well as progress towards an EU Health Union. 

Agenda

List of participants

Report

 
   

27 November 2020: Annual high-level meeting with religious leaders

Vice-President Schinas hosted the annual high-level meeting with religious leaders. The theme of this year's meeting was "The European way of life". The meeting looked at how the current crisis may have affected and challenged this way of life and the responses to these challenges. The meeting also addressed other recent developments such as the Migration and Asylum Pact, inclusion and integration as well as progress towards an EU Health Union. 

Agenda

List of participants

Report

Link to the press conference which took place after the meeting

 
   

1 April 2019: Article 17 dialogue seminar - 'A different take on Europe'

A Seminar entitled ‘A different take on Europe' was organised on 1 April 2019  by DG JUSTICE - with the contribution of the European Political Strategy Centre (EPSC) - in association with the European Association of Free Thought (AEPL), Contribution des Obédiences Maçonniques Adogmatique et Libérales à la Construction Européenne (COMALACE), Egalité, Laïcité, Europe (EGALE), Institut Maçonnique Européen (IME) and the European Humanist Federation (EHF).

Minutes  (FR, DE)

EPSC publication ‘State of the Union 2018: Our Destiny in Our Hands’ 

 
   

9 January 2019: Meeting to inform and gather the views of Article 17 dialogue partners (please see see text here).

A meeting on the draft “Ethics guidelines for trustworthy AI” issued on 18 December 2018 by the High Level Expert Group (HLG) on Artificial Intelligence was held with a number of religious and non-confessional organisations to explain the context of these draft guidelines and gather the views of these organisations on the draft guidelines. This meeting follows the consultations with non-confessional organisations during the high-level meeting which took place on 18 June 2018 and with religious organisations held on 10 September 2018.

Text of the draft “Ethics guidelines for trustworthy AI

Further information on the European Commission’s approach to AI are available here

European AI Alliance web page

 
   

8 October 2018: First Vice-President Frans Timmermans hosted the annual high-level meeting with religious leaders, focussed  on The Future of Europe: addressing challenges through concrete actions (press release).

Programme

List of participants

Please find here some pictures

For a clip

 
   

10 September 2018:Meeting on the Commission's approach to Artificial Intelligence with Article 17 dialogue partners ( Brussels)

A meeting on the Commission's approach to Artificial Intelligence (AI) was held on 10 September 2018 with a number of religious organisations, in the framework of the Article 17 dialogue with religious and non-confessional organisations. The aim of the meeting was to gather the views of these organisations on the ongoing work of the Commission in the field of AI in particular in view of the ethical dimension of the challenges raised by AI. The European AI Alliance, a multistakeholder online forum, which allows a broad consultation of stakeholders was presented during the meeting. This meeting with religious organisations followed the consultations with non-confessional organisations during the high-level meeting which took place on 18 June 2018.

Further information on the European Commission’s approach to AI can be found here

 European AI Alliance web page

 
   

18 June 2018: Vice-President Andrus Ansip, Commissioner for Digital Single Market, hosted the annual high-level meeting with non-confessinal organisations, focussed this year on Artificial Intelligence: addressing ethical and social challenges (press release).

Programme

List of participants

Please find here some pictures

For a clip

 
   

24 May 2018: Presentation for Art 17 stakeholders on the Recommendation on promoting common values, inclusive education, and the European dimension of teaching.

Presentation 

For further details, please see here.

 

 

28  March 2018: First Vice-President Timmermans holds roundtable with European Muslim leaders

First Vice-President Frans Timmermans held on 28 March 2018 a roundtable discussion with ten European imams and scholars as part of the Future of Europe debate and the Commission's engagement with Muslim communities in Europe. The imams and scholars came from six Member States – Belgium, Bulgaria, Germany, France, Italy and The Netherlands - and represented the Sunni, Shia, Ahmadiyya and Alevi branches of Islam.  Ahead of the roundtable, First Vice-President Timmermans said: "The Muslim community, in all its diversity, has an important role to play in Europe's future. Muslims will find a loyal friend in the European Commission that will support everyone's right to practice their faith and traditions in peace". This meeting Commission forms part of the regular dialogue with churches, religions, philosophical and non-confessional organisations foreseen by the Lisbon Treaty (Article 17), under which high-level meetings with religious and non-confessional organisations are regularly held (the last events were held on 19 June and 7 November 2017). In September 2017, First Vice-President Timmermans hosted a seminar with Muslim university students from across the continent together with European Parliament Vice-President Mairead McGuinness. This meeting was an opportunity to further deepen a much needed conversation, bringing in new voices and perspectives. A specific follow-up will be proposed by the Commission in close consultation with the participants to the meeting.

List of participants

 

 

30 January 2018: Presentation for Article 17 stakeholders on the '2018 European Year of Cultural Heritage'.

Power point presentation 'Our Heritage: Where the Past Meets the Future'

List of participants

Website of the EYCH2018 campaign (including list of events at EU and national levels):

http://europa.eu/cultural-heritage/

 

 

7 November 2017: First Vice-President Frans Timmermans hosted the annual High-level meeting with Religious Leaders (press release).

Programme

List of participants

Please find here some pictures.

For a clip

 

 

27 October 2017: First Vice-President Frans Timmermans spoke at the opening ceremony of the (Re)thinking Europe Conference organised by COMECE (Commission of the Bishops' Conferences of the European Community) in the Vatican

 

 

9 October 2017: First Vice-President Frans Timmermans held a speech at Grandes Conférences Catholiques, « Les valeurs font l'Union. Sans valeurs, pas d'Union ».

 

 

2 October 2017: Mr Vincent Depaigne has been appointed as the European Commission Coordinator for the dialogue between the European Commission and churches, religious associations or communities, philosophical and non-confessional organisations established under Article 17 TFEU. (News)

 

 

28 September 2017: "Engaging Muslim Young People in the Future of Europe Debate". 29 Muslim university students and activists from 17 Member States discussed issues as diverse as social Europe, globalisation, workplace discrimination, identity, European citizenship, radicalization, EU foreign policy, migration and integration in this one-day conference hosted by Commission First Vice-President Frans Timmermans and EP First Vice-President Mairead McGuinness.

Programme

 

 

21 September 2017Message  (please find here the FR version ) by Frans Timmermans, First Vice-President of the European Commission, to the Muslim community on the occasion of European Action Day countering Hate Speech against Muslims and on Islamic New Year.

 

 

20 September 2017: Message  (please find here FR and DE versions) from First Vice-President Frans Timmermans to the Jewish Community in Europe, on the occasion of Rosh-Hashana.

 

 

7 July 2017, Brussels: dialogue seminar on the "Future of Europe", with the participation of some 30 representatives from religious and non-confessional organisations.

List of participants

Programme

 

 
  27 June 2017: First Vice-President Frans Timmermans spoke at the  European Parliament Art 17 conference "The Future of Europe - Reflections for the EU by 2025"

 

19 June 2017: First Vice-President Frans Timmermans hosts in Brussels the annual High-level meeting with Philosophical and Non-confessional Organisations (press release).

Programme

List of participants

For more pictures

For a clip

 

 

11 May 2017: a delegation from KAICIID International Dialogue Centre met EU officials to present their activities.

Please find here the programme and the list of participants

 

 

29 November 2016: First Vice-President Frans Timmermans hosts the 12th annual high-level meeting with religious leaders from across Europe to discuss "Migration, integration and European values" (press release).

Programme

List of participants

For more pictures

For a clip

 

 

24 October 2016: Commission-COMECE-CEC dialogue seminar on 'Migration: mapping and addressing fear'

  Presentations:

 COMECE-CEC Press release of 25/10/2016: Migrants: from fear to compassion

 

 

30 September 2016: message pdf(50 kB) from First Vice-President Frans Timmermans to the Jewish Community in Europe, on the occasion of Rosh-Hashana.

 

 
30 June 2016: Brussels, First Vice-President Frans Timmermans hosted the annual High-level Meeting with Non-Confessional Organisations (press release).

 

 

 22 June 2016: Brussels, First Vice-President Frans Timmermans participated in an Iftar celebration hosted by the Plateforme des Musulmans de Belgique, the Union des Mosquées de la Region de Bruxelles and the Ligue des Imams de Belgique.

 

 

1 June 2016: Brussels, dialogue seminar on "Facing european crisis: refugees, intolerance, role of youth", jointly organised by the European Commission - DG Justice and Consumers, Association européenne de la pensée libre (AEPL), Alliance maçonnique européenne (AME), Contribution des obédiences maçonniques libérales et adogmatiques à la construction européenne (COMALACE), Egalité Laïcité Europe (EGALE), Fédération humaniste européenne (FHE).

 

 

22 April 2016: First Vice-President Frans Timmermans met Bishop Bedford-Strohm and the Council of the Evangelical Church in Germany

 

 

 27 January 2016: EN DE FR HE Message pdf(43 kB) by President Jean-Claude Juncker to the Jewish community on the occasion of International Holocaust Remembrance Day

 

 

 15 December 2015: First Vice-President Frans Timmermans meeting with Cardinal Gerhard Müller in Strasbourg.

 

 

13 December 2015: speech pdf(214 kB) held by First Vice-President Frans Timmermans during the celebration of Hanukkah at the Grande Synagogue de l'Europe, Brussels.

 

 

8 December 2015: speech pdf(203 kB) from First Vice-President Frans Timmermans during the celebration of EuroHanukkah.

 

 

 4 December 2015: message from First Vice-President Frans Timmermans on the occasion of Hanukkah 2015.

 

 

2 December 2015: Brussels, dialogue seminar on "Beyond the refugee crisis: integration of migrants into society and labour market", jointly organised by the European Commission - DG Justice and Consumers, the Conference of European Churches - CEC, the Churches' Commission for Migrants in Europe - CCME, and the Commission of the Episcopates of the European Communities - COMECE.

 

 

18 November 2015: Brussels, dialogue seminar on the topic of "Living together in Europe" ("Vivre ensemble en Europe"), jointly organised by the European Commission - DG Justice and Consumers, and COMALACE - Contribution des Obédiences Maçonniques Libérales et Adogmatiques á la Construction Européenne. The meeting was focussed on the integration of migrants into society.

 

 
 

Moving testimonies about antisemitism and anti-Muslim hatred in Europe today, given at the first Annual Colloquium on Fundamental Rights on 1st October:

 

 
 

 

 

A videoclip on the annual high level meetings with religious leaders and philosophical and non-confessional organisations from across Europe, hosted by First Vice-President Timmermans on 2nd and 16th June 2015.

 

 

16th June 2015: First Vice-President Timmermans hosted the annual high level meeting with religious leaders. (Newsroom)

 

 
 

2nd June 2015: First Vice-President Frans Timmermans hosted the annual high level meeting with philosophical and non-confessional organisations. (Newsroom)

 

 

 2nd June 2015: First Vice-President Frans Timmermans met Ms Louma Albik, President of SB Overseas.

 

 

1st June 2015: First Vice-President Frans Timmermans met President Yvan Biefnot and Vice-President Tony Van der haegen of the European Association of Free Thought.

 

 

11 May 2015:First Vice-President Frans Timmermans addressing the Plenary Assembly of the Conference of European Rabbis in Toulouse. (video)

 

 

24 March 2015: First Vice-President Frans Timmermans spoke at an event at the European Parliament on religious radicalism and the role of inter-faith dialogue in the framework of the Article 17 dialogue. He stressed: "I believe we, in Europe, have lost sometimes the understanding of what it is to be religious. Sometimes you get the impression that religion is a choice like fashion (...) Which is the case for some people, but which is not the case for many, many millions more. And the lack of understanding of each other's religious beliefs (...)  is one of the problems we face in Europe." (Full speech / video)

 

 

23 March 2015: Brussels, dialogue seminar with the Association Européenne de la Pensee Libre - AEPL,  on the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) agreement.

 

 

 27 November 2014: Brussels, dialogue seminar on "Common actions to fight trafficking in human beings", jointly organised by the European Commission - European political Strategy Centre, the Church and Society Commission of the Conference of European Churches (CEC), in cooperation with the Churches’ Commission for Migrants in Europe (CCME) and the Commission of the Bishops’ Conferences of the European Community (COMECE).

 

 

12 November 2014: First Vice-President Frans Timmermans meets a delegation from the Conference of the European Rabbis.

 

 

Legal basis

The Treaty of Lisbon explicitly introduces the idea of a dialogue between European institutions and churches, religious associations or communities as well as philosophical and non-confessional organisations (Article 17):

  1. The Union respects and does not prejudice the status under national law of churches and religious associations or communities in the Member States.
  2. The Union equally respects the status under national law of philosophical and non-confessional organisations.
  3. Recognising their identity and their specific contribution, the Union shall maintain an open, transparent and regular dialogue with these churches and organisations.

In July 2013 the European Commission published Guidelines on the implementation of Article 17pdf at the European Commission which set the framework for this "open, transparent and regular dialogue".

Background

The fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 marked a turning point in European history. The then EU Commission President Jacques Delors (in office 1985-1994), was well aware of the challenges ahead. These included the prospect of EU enlargement and the construction of a political union that would match the ambitions of the economic and later monetary union.

The starting point was talking to representatives of organisations active in the fields of science, culture and religion. The aim was to exchange ideas about the meaning and implications of the European integration process. Consequently, the EU Commission introduced a regular dialogue with religions, churches and communities of conviction. Delors' successors, Jacques Santer, Romano Prodi, as well as the current President, José Manuel Barroso, kept the tradition and developed it further, regarding it as an important instrument of participatory democracy.

Under the Juncker Commission First Vice President Timmermans is responsible for the dialogue.

Activities under the previous Commission have been archived.

This item has been seen 15528 times. Thanks for your interest.